Interview With Yuiry Dzhygyr, Deputy Minister of Defense, Ukraine and former UNICEF Consultant on Child Protection : Nuzhat Shahzadi

Background:

I met Yuiry in Kiribati when he came to work as a consultant to UNICEF to support our Child Protection programs. From then on, we kept in touch. When the war broke out in Ukraine I was worried for him, his colleague Katya, who I had also met in Tarawa, their families, friends and Ukraine at large. We connected stronger––I relived my experiences of genocide committed by the Pakistani military in Bangladesh in 1971. My dad (a military doctor) stayed back in Lahore while we returned to Dhaka. He was arrested in December, 1971 and was a POW for over 3 years. His nephew Captain (rtd) Haleem Chowdhury formed, trained and commanded the largest Bengalee freedom fighters’ rebel-army in the occupied Bangladesh and was the most wanted man by the Pakistani military. My uncle, a CA, was a prominent figure in the Free-Bangladesh Movement in UK/London, along with Abu Sayeed Chowdhury in 1971. Chowdhury eventually became the 2nd President of independent Bangladesh. My family in Dhaka was in plain sight––in the shooting range. Bengalees were slaughtered for less. Not sure how they missed finding us (possibly, no internet/social media!!).

Last Summer, as I took Izara (my granddaughter, now 4 years old) in a stroller around the neighborhood, she spotted the Ukrainian flags beside American flags hosted in several houses in solidarity. I explained the flags to her. And the idea of the interview was formed. I delayed reaching out to Yuiry till I was sure that the theatrics of the Republican party (US) regarding approving aid to Ukraine would be futile.

Here’s my interview with Yuiry (unedited)––I copied and pasted from WhatsApp that we used.

1. Let's start with you. I met you in Kiribati as a child protection professional. Kindly tell me about yourself: area of expertise, academic background, the technical work you have been doing on child protection before the war began––anything about your personal life you would like to share.

Most of my professional life has been linked to public financing of human development, in its immense complexity and interdisciplinarity. I graduated as a public economist and political scientist, and spent years working on budgeting reforms around the world. This included support to stronger financing of healthcare, education, social welfare, and of course protection of children’s rights, including, critically, their right to grow free from violence and abuse. I worked on these issues as a consultant and as a government official, including as a Deputy Minister of Finance in Ukraine, overseeing human development expenditure programs.

I came to believe that child protection is one of the most complex areas and one of the strongest examples of interconnectedness of human development problems and the need to address them in a systemic way. This is exactly what we were trying to promote when we met with you in Kiribati in 2013: the need to measure and monitor progress in strengthening child protection as a complex system.

In the ten years since that time, I was struck with the importance of one of the dimensions in child protection which we have covered already in 2013, especially in some East Asian and Pacific countries, as well as in Western Balkans, which is the political, and even geopolitical context. Moreover, what Ukraine is now teaching us, child protection is actually central to the most extreme, colossal modern conflicts and political confrontation. It is the safety of the children which drives most Ukrainians to risk their lives at the front; the urge to protect children causes catastrophic displacement of population further complicating Ukraine’s demographic decline. And it was the international outcry over the illegal deportation and forced displacement of Ukrainian children from the temporarily occupied territories which created grounds for arrest warrants for the Russian Federation’s President and Commissioner for Children’s Rights issued by the International Court of Justice: for now, it is the first and only issue where international reaction to the war is clear and united. When the world finds it increasingly difficult to discuss the red lines, abusing children is the red line on which we can start to agree. This is not acceptable; it is inhumane; it must stop.

2. We are aware about the ongoing war and Russian aggression. What made you accept the position of Deputy Defense Minister? What's your role?

Prior to the full-scale war, I spent two years as a Deputy Minister of Finance, covering Ukraine’s government spending on human development sectors: health, education, social protection and welfare, culture and sports. At that time, for example in 2018, these programs accounted for 53 percent of the country’s budget; our public finances have been very strongly oriented towards human development programs. In 2023, their combined share in the budget has shrunk to less than 25 percent. On the other hand, the share of defense spending grew from 8 to 47.2 percent. Military expenditures are now dominating, and my experience of managing a very large expenditure portfolio is needed in this other sector, unfortunately. My motivation in accepting this post was very simple: this is where I can be most useful at this time. Since February 2022, every Ukrainian is doing what they can to help the most.

3. It’s been over two years since Russia invaded Ukraine. Peoples’ lives have been immensely impacted. What is the condition of the children? There must be many orphaned, maimed, wounded, and suffering from trauma. What support is available for the care of these children?

Unfortunately, for many children it has been much longer than two years; even before the full-scale invasion in 2022 and for eight years since the war had started in 2014, hundreds of thousands of children have lived on temporarily occupied territories or in active combat zones, experiencing multiple violation of their rights. But these last two years since the full-scale invasion have truly opened our eyes to some of the yet unknown horror. We are parting with the illusion that provision of support services is a sustainable response. The risks and needs of these children are bigger than we had ever feared.

What happened since February 2022 has been in many ways a promising surprise: not only did Ukraine continue to fight, but it also survived as a viable state, with all government systems working, public services provided despite deficits and disruptions. Moreover, having survived the initial shock, we have returned to the pre-invasion reform agenda, only now it is forcefully scaled up. In all public service systems – health, education, social welfare, and also child protection – we are modernizing funding and provision, working even harder on achieving value for money, quality and accountability. With so many Ukrainians literally dying for their state, the society is as demanding as never. The Government is committed to implementing the Better Care reform to ensure that each child grows up in family by providing support to families to prevent institutionalization and developing family-based forms of care for children deprived of parental care. We are reforming the social protection system and developing new social services to address the impact of the war. Among these is the new resilience service aimed at providing basic psychosocial support in the communities, improving social cohesion, and promoting positive parenting. The Government is revamping the child protection system, it digitalizes databases and services, it pilots new community-based integrated care models. It is also helpful that Ukraine is now on the road towards EU accession and is working to comply with EU commitments for the protection of child rights. The Better Care reform, for example, is based on the good global practices from deinstitutionalization reforms and the principles of the European Child Guarantee. The adoption of the National Strategy to Ensure the Right of Every Child in Ukraine to Grow Up in a Family Environment is included as an indicator in the Plan for the Ukraine Facility.

This is for the positive. The hard side is that no matter how resilient Ukrainian institutions are, no matter how much humanitarian support we receive to keep going, the war goes on. The largest war on the European continent since WWII continues to kill, orphan and traumatize children every day and every night, until we stop Russian aggression. Children throughout the country have comparable access to public services, but, since the insufficient quantity of air defense system could not provide coverage for the whole country, many children and their families throughout the whole Ukraine could be and are targeted by missile and guided bombs attacks.

Now that we are beyond this initial shock, we need to plan ahead and think of sustainability. In the worst case scenario, more people will face the fate of children you may see in “20 Days in Mariupol” documentary. In the best case scenario, occupation will be averted, and the only open question is how many more children will suffer irreparable damage to their lives until that day. This is also a core reason why I am in the Ministry of Defense. I know that the best protection for Ukrainian children right now is to have access to modern air defense systems and to have this war ended literally as soon as possible.

Forgive my long response to this question, but I think it is a critical message to share with like-minded professionals. I have spent my whole life working on human development, not military development. I respect the concepts of deliberate strategic ambiguity and controlled escalation to avoid direct conflict, even though it is emotionally difficult to accept for anyone in the middle of any war. But we need to be honest: the ambiguity regarding Russia’s military plans ended in Bucha. We know exactly what they will do to the children in the cities they occupy. Watch 20 Days in Mariupol. Every additional day of this war is costing more lives mutilated just as you see in this documentary film.

4. Do you have enough medical professionals, supplies, and safe medical facilities in the country? Can children in need access them?

I mentioned already the resilience of many institutions and even the on-going reforms, despite the war. Of course, humanitarian support, as well as the massive participation of Ukrainian civil society and individual volunteers, is also critical. But we rely on external budget support to fund human development programs, since government revenues are primarily used to buy missiles, ammunitions and hire thousands of soldiers. Resources are not enough, and they are running low.

5. We hear the news of atrocities inflicted by Russian soldiers on civilians. Could you please elaborate? Any specific stories from the affected areas on human rights violations that have deeply impacted you––have become personal for you?

This is a terrifying war, unprecedentedly documented in hundreds of videos and stories. Instead of recounting specific episodes, I want to share one story which concerns many children and which I am still struggling to process.

It is related to Russia’s kidnapping of children from temporarily occupied territories. As many have read, the Russian state has organized a massive campaign to deport Ukrainian children from the temporarily occupied territories. As of today, official reports indicate that 19,546 children have been taken away from these areas to Russia; however, the actual number is likely to be much higher. The first children who got deported are orphans and children without parental care, as well as children of the parents considered “unreliable” during examination in the filtration camps or children of the forcefully conscripted parents. These children are placed in families under changed names and surnames, making it extremely difficult to trace the child’s whereabouts; the CSOs report that such families are also mandated to ensure the child’s ideological reeducation, thereby deliberately distorting their identity.

But what I find most difficult to process in this story, even though the story is shocking in itself, is that the Russian state is using the child protection argument to motivate these crimes. Some of the deported children, mostly having significant disabilities, have lived in residential homes in Ukraine, and their kidnapping is presented as a measure to replace residential placements with family care. I just find it cynical beyond comprehension. These are the most vulnerable children whose rights are fundamentally violated. This is not international adoption; there is no legal consent from the guardians, no assessment, no monitoring, no follow up, no information on the child’s safety and welfare. We have no idea where these children are; CSOs report that some have died and there were cases of suicides. And their ruined lives are used to manipulate global opinions on geopolitical matters.

It is also bitterly ironic. Based on the GBD statistics, the rate of deaths from interpersonal violence among 5–9-year-olds in 2019 was almost twice higher in Russia than in Ukraine (0.92 compared to 0.56 per 100,000). Ukraine’s child protection system has been reforming rapidly and was on the path to significant improvement when we were invaded. Family-oriented alternative care is expanding, the baby homes which used to host children under the age of 3 years, mostly with severe disabilities, are rapidly transforming into outpatient medical rehabilitation centers funded through a new pooled healthcare financing mechanism, juvenile justice system is changing and new tools have been installed to inform and address cases of maltreatment. Russia had struck a massive blow on this progress by slashing available resources, running infrastructure, displacing social workers and families, distracting law enforcement personnel, and putting thousands of children under direct fire. And yet, allegation to the lack of family care in Ukraine is used to cover illegal deportation and forced displacement of children to Russia and the temporarily occupied territories.

I find it shocking that crimes against children are packed into humanistic messages. It's shocking how crimes against children can be shielded by the intricate use of technical jargon, which soothes the concerns of those who genuinely care but inadvertently leads them into ignorance. It illustrates the extent of cynicism we are experiencing from our adversaries in this war.

6. Are girls and women victims of sexual violence committed by Russian soldiers? What kind of support system exists to help the victims?

Yes, they are, and not only girls and women. About a third of cases registered by Ukraine’s prosecution are against males. Sexual violence in war is widespread and goes beyond personal offence: it is used as a weapon of war – a tool of terror and humiliation. The victims have also often suffered from torture and unthinkable emotional abuse. Children are raped in front of parents, parents are raped in front of children, often some of the relatives killed in the process. Of course, the actual scale of crime and abuse is not visible beyond the identified cases and is probably much bigger. We can only guess from the figures like those discovered after Bucha massacre: dozens of the bodies discovered in this little town were raped, including children. Some were kept in a cellar for days and continuously abused. The darkness of the horrors coming from this war will be discovered for years to come.

As we discussed, when Russia attacked us, Ukraine had a growing system of social services; there is a range of support services available to the victims: legal and psychological advice, hotlines, shelters. After the invasion, new services were created such as survivor relief centers, psychological safety spaces, digitized channels for anonymous reporting and for seeking help, mobile services to ensure access for individuals living along the frontlines and in newly de-ocuppied territories. Ukraine has also joined the recently created International Alliance for Preventing Sexual Violence in Conflict and co-chaired this initiative in 2023 (the Alliance currently includes 13 countries).

But of course, no amount of support can repair the damage of new cases happening as we talk. Every day. We are not talking about one or several scandalous cases. It is a constant, on-going crime. Some of these children, women and men are still in the cellars; others will be taken tomorrow if we don’t stop this.

7. Kindly tell me about the courage and patriotism of the people of Ukraine.

I know there were signs in Europe in 2022 calling to “Be brave like Ukraine” and Ukraine’s courage became a bit of an urban legend, but I believe it is important to explain it.

Before Russia started the war in 2014, many Ukrainians spent a cold winter on the main streets protesting against government policies. The protests started after the former President had stalled Ukraine’s EU Association, and the people demanded to continue Europeanisation and related reforms. But it is critical to remember what the actual trigger was and why so many people risked their comfort and then their lives that year. The protests did not start in Kyiv; they actually started in a small town of Vradiyivka, where two policemen had raped and tried to kill a local woman, who had the guts to report them. This episode became a tipping point in the accumulation of popular discontent with human right abuses by the state. Most people coming to the streets in Vradiyivka and then all over Ukraine had personal stories of human rights violation by the state. The massive protests on Maidan in Kyiv started full scale only after police had used force against the peacefully protesting students. This winter became known as a “Revolution of Dignity” for a good reason. It was not simply about choosing Ukraine’s future with the EU, it was strongly focused on human rights. The Euro-Atlantic agenda was prominent in the demands of the protestors because it reflected the expectation of reforms to protect human rights; Russian resistance to Ukraine’s EU Association was outraging protesters because it threatened to drag Ukraine back into the culture of authoritarian rule.

This historical detour is important because it shows that back in 2014 Ukrainians had asserted their commitment to democracy and human rights. And starting from that winter, we began to discover the price. As Vradiyivka gave courage to Maidan, the murder of peaceful protestors on Maidan in February 2014 gave courage to the soldiers who went to defend Ukraine from Russia’s invasion in Crimea and Donbas later that year. The eight years of fighting Russia until full-scale invasion in 2022 have proved that it is not a credible negotiator, that it manipulates facts by highlighting emotions, that it fueled the spread of post-truth into global politics, and that it will not stop. It showed the growing price of betraying the choice made in 2014, and it gave us courage to pay the growing cost of fighting for that choice.

You asked to talk about courage and patriotism, but patriotism is not what drives most of the Ukrainians in this war. They are not protecting land and flags, they are protecting their choice to live based on the principles of human dignity and human rights. They are fighting for a governance and political framework which could deliver a democratic, inclusive, and accountable society.

8. Do you miss your previous work life? How long do you want to continue as a Deputy Minister? I have survived a genocide in my childhood––so I understand your reasons for taking this job in a totally new direction.

Human development is always in my heart. I know there will be a lot of work on reconstruction, recovery, and modernization after the war, and I very much want to be part of this future work, as a professional, and as a citizen. Having paid that huge price, it will be important for the country to put in place the actual systems and institutions to protect human dignity, to deliver human-centered public services, to spend the budget responsibly and transparently. Unfortunately, the trauma of the war will require a lot of support to heal. The dramatically reduced number of children in Ukraine will need a new level of care, education, and support to recover and to contribute to the future of their country.

But to create this future, the most urgent task is to defend it, and I will do it for as long as will be needed.

9. Anything else you would like to add?

This is a UNICEF blog, so I would like to use this chance to support colleagues working for the UN family.

UN is now in the center of fierce criticism, especially in Ukraine, because of its inability to resolve the war of such scale. I worked with UN organizations in the past, including UNICEF and WHO, and I personally continue to believe in the UN ideal, and I understand firsthand the challenges of navigating and reaching consensus within multilateral structures. I also understand that UN was never meant to address wars involving aggressors who sit on the Security Council. This is simply a new level of global complexity which is not entirely matching the UN mandate.

But I am very afraid of referring to the global complexity and the need to reform international institutions to justify inaction. UN is still an immensely powerful player. Even if it can’t stop the war, it can fundamentally decrease the level of brutality, it can save millions of lives, it can turn geopolitical agendas in entirely new directions. What is needed for this is not abstract reforms in the theoretical future. It requires practical brave steps at various posts already today. Things could be said by their names during meetings. Controversial discoveries could be taken forward and not dropped. Traditions could be questioned. Questions could be asked. No matter what happens to UN in the future, brave steps now can bring back respect and support for those who tried their best.

To me, the UN is a brotherhood of noble idealists, and not just a club of escapists who travel business class to preach bureaucratic safety. The UN idealism has sometimes been a weakness, and I remember the difficult debates we had with UNICEF on the need to incorporate economic development constraints into the discussion on child rights. I remember how, being an economist, I would be quietly labelled a utilitarian by the fellow right absolutists who insisted on disregarding the costs of protecting children, which was paramount. Now I am saying to the UN brotherhood: this is your defining moment. I believe that UN is the place with a critical mass of people for whom the devotion to the rights of the child, and to rights of humans in general, is stronger than the devotion to a concrete model of UN governance or to a concrete procedure for selecting permanent members of the security council. If we don’t do it together, nobody else will.